I have a Phil Barone stenciled Mac 20 tenor saxophone in copper. I understand that it is produced in a factory in or near Beijing in the Peoples Republic of China. I will not discuss here how it came to bear that logo as I do not have all the facts. Rather I will stick to what I do know and let the rest emerge during discussions.
There has been considerable controversy surrounding these instruments so I thought that it was time for someone to write a detailed review of the horn. As I stated in my review of the Barone Vintage tenor last week, I am a dedicated gear head so I beg that the reader forgive my emphasis on the build of the horn and the mechanical aspects of it's construction. FIRST IMPRESSIONS: The case is lovely and almost identical to a ProTec® or other quality gig bag type case. For just running around town I find these cases perfectly acceptable in that I am the sole handler of my equipment.
Shipping, airline checking or any other travel situation would, in my opinion, call for a more robust case. There is a 6” in diameter Phil Barone logo embroidered on the upper flat of the case in red and gives the case a very finished and professional look. Inside the case the saxophone was cloaked in the usual clear plastic bag. There are separate compartments in the case for neck and mouthpiece and generous gear bags incorporated into the outside of the case sides. Unwrapped it is a very pretty saxophone indeed with a clear lacquer that allows the dark reddy tones of the copper to dominate. Unfortunately, the engraving which covers much of the horn although somewhat sparsely, is weak and shallow, most probably due to over-buffing. The keywork is silver plate, lacquered.
On first glance it is quite nice but closer examination shows grinder or tooling marks on the sides of the key arms and on the edges of key brackets and even the thumb hook. It was obviously ground to shape or fit but then poorly cleaned up before plating.
The horn was shipped with two necks, an engraved copper one with a standard top octave key and an engraved and silver plated neck with the underslung key arm. I instantly liked the underslung silver one but on close examination I noticed several small black specks. Magnification revealed that they were in fact holes in the silver plate where the engraver left a pushed up point which has shed its plating and left the raw brass showing through.
These will eventually form “florets” where the corrosion spreads on the silver surface. Overall the horn is very pretty with it's copper body and bell, a look that many other manufacturers strive to emulate with colored lacquer. But the real thing is hard to beat. I like the contrast of the silver keys and copper body.
The keywork looks like a pro horn and were the engraving sharper this would truly be a beautiful saxophone. SETUP AND MECHANICALS: Here was where it started to get really interesting. I ran the keys and there was resistance and odd clanking noises. That's not what you want to hear from a new horn and an examination soon found at least 12 serious adjustment issues.
First, the low C key touch was striking the low E key if it was open. The low C key itself was slow and depression of the key resulted in the pad stopping about half way to open. This, of course can mean several things, like the spring is too soft, the hinge pin is too tightly screwed in or there is interference between the end of the rod and the post caused by a bent rod, foreign matter ( like lacquer) or a bent post. All can usually be adjusted away but this was a new horn and such problems are not to be expected. Ok, out with the nylon jaw pliers and go to work. Things were crooked and out of adjustment all over the action.
In one case a dragging key left me slightly in disbelief. The way most horns are built, the tightness of the action is adjusted by screwing in the hinge pin screws on the posts. The hinges are simple and too much pressure usually equates a dragging key. Too loose is, well, too loose and things get sloppy. Adjust in to just snug and back it out until it's just right and you're golden. On a well built horn like a Selmer, Yamaha or most any Taiwanese sax the pin screws are in about right if the screw is close to flush with the post. It's not a requirement by a long shot but nice.
On this dragging key, I loosened the screw a ¼ turn and it got looser. Then I loosened it another ¼ turn and, uh-oh, it got tight and draggy again. Very odd and not at all correct. I had to put four long hours of setup into the horn to make it easily playable. From the above you can glean that I could write a small book on just this horn setup and what I found wrong with it.
Not to be sarcastic but it was like someone tried to make a saxophone from a picture. It was like salsa made by Eskimos. Not knowing what it looks, smells or tastes like, the outcome of the effort is doubtful. This may sound like a serious condemnation of the horn but, damn, it is completely inconsistent with the general appearance of the instrument. It looks really nice but the devil, or devils in this case, are in the details. Further examination showed similar inconsistency in the general build. There were rods that were too short so a gap of.8mm or so existed.
There is lacquer on the ends of some rods making them produce a plastic squeak when operated. (really, a couple of keys squeak on this horn) There were leaks caused by pads not coming down square with the tone holes, actuation arms that were timed either too soon or too late and key touches soldered on lopsided. In general it would be an understatement for me to say that I am not impressed at all with the build of this horn. When I was cleaning it up after the setup and oiling the keys. My soft polish rag happened to drag, not snag, but just drag across the end of the right side bass action guard and, it moved. Now, it isn't supposed to move as it is held down by two sturdy little soldered on posts.
So I wiggled it and it came off in my hand, or at least half of it did. It appeared that the lower post was either poorly soldered or not soldered at all. I found that the reason that it did not take the solder was that the foot of the post was never formed to fit the curvature of the body. The tech who soldered it on either didn't notice it was flat – hard to believe – or just didn't care.
(See picture links below) This then begs the question, how many other careless joints or malformed parts are there in the action? I haven't found any more, but I keep looking and waiting. PLAYING: Once I had it in some semblance of playable, I played it first with the copper neck for continuity and it sounds really nice. Not like a vintage horn or a Selmer or anything else I've played. It has a fairly dark and centered tone with just a bit of spread. In all a very nice sounding tenor.
I had initially found the low Bb keys too closed which I thought might be choking the sound a bit. I opened them up and it sounded much more open to me. I played it with both necks and found that the copper best suited the horn to me. Soundwise, I couldn't really tell much difference in the silver plated neck. And, since neither neck cork had been sanded I had to sand them both down to allow a mouthpiece to be pushed on to the best position. In sanding, one of the neck corks, the one on the silver neck, came loose and was rotating with the sandpaper. On examination I found that there was no shellac or glue under the cork.
For this review I chose not to take the time to re-cork the neck and just forced some contact cement under it to get me. I'll re-cork it later. The action is a bit tall which would probably slow down a fast player. I'm not one so it didn't hurt my efforts. On a positive note pun the intonation is excellent. I played it with a Link HR Tone Edge 6.
and a Barone Jazz 6. up and down the scale in front of the electronic tuner and it was real close on everything.
I don't altissimo yet so I can't attest to the intonation there but from the fine intonation of the horn in general I would guess it is fine. Low notes are full without any bullfrog growl to them and come out easily. Generally, it's an easy horn to play with a great tone. The darkness of the copper, a debatable contribution I know, seems evident as the tone is dark and smokey particularly in the sub-tone range.
SUMMATION: This horn is a real shame. That's a strong statement I know but I can't come up with a better characterization. It is a very pretty, good sounding and in tune saxophone.
I have not examined any of the Chinese “white glove” specials for sale on eBay. I've only seen pictures and they look nice but I understand the build quality is poor and they don't last. I fear for this horn's future durability as well. The pivot pins and the basic quality of the solder joints along with all the other details not done well make me generally scared of it.
These weaknesses lead me not to recommend this horn to anyone, pro or student. However, having done the work that I have done on this sax, it's now in pretty good playing shape. If you're a tech or a keen and qualified amateur, you could tweak and twiddle with the thing as I have and wind up with a pretty good horn. But for the price, it is presented as a professional grade saxophone and, well, it just is not. But, if you took the time and money to fix everything wrong with it, it would be a damned nice horn.
To compare the Chinese and Taiwanese instruments is unfair on its face. Since the grip of the Mao regime forced most artists and intellectuals to either flee or face “reeducation” in 1966, the two cultures have been completely split regardless of the shared language and ethnic Han derivation. The Taiwanese have had 40 years of independence and entrepreneurship where the Chinese have had 40 years of initiative destroying communism. Now, it's different in China. Therefore, it is certainly conceivable that, with discipline and guidance, this Beijing factory could turn this horn into a fine professional saxophone worthy of it's stencil and price, but it's not there yet. Luckily for them, the hardest part is done; it sounds great and plays in tune. Given the notorious Chinese lack of quality control, this instrument could simply be a poor example and others from the same lot might not share any of the problems evident in this horn.
Sounds like it's not worth keeping if you paid top dollar for it really. It sounds like junk - one step removed from scrap metal. No wonder Phil didn't want his horns made in China. For the sake of clarification and not intending to Hijack this thread or shilling. I cannot comment about this particular horn, of course there are many different makers. But Chinese horns are not necessarily bad click several times until fully expanded this is a horn that I have bought at the Musikmesse in Frankfurt is Chinese made.
They are made very well (the engraving is incredible) and play very well indeed as another member here, Toughtenor, a professional player can witness. I own a MAC20 in silver, it's great and I totally disagree with Rob on the build quality mine is very well built. It needed setting up and yes, I had it with my tech for an hour to change over some of the cork for felt but then I have to take my Selmer BA to my tech every 3 months or so for something!I've owned my MAC20 around 6 weeks now and taken it out on the road, playing a major music festival in Ireland. I have no axe to grind or agenda to push I wanted a good, bright, solidly built horn that wasn't going to break the bank. This horn does that has a great tone and is very LOUD! Well I took a risk to be suspected of shilling but as I said, the pictures which I published are just a demonstration of how well a Chinese horn CAN be made.
As always, the problem is nor in the the provenance but in the quality control. Which, ultimately, is what the consumer is paying for by buying a horn that is not made by the trading company selling them! I genuinely dislike the attitude against the Taiwanese and Chinese production ' per se '. I do understand the problems that some brands or makers might have though. Sorry it was late.
Here are some pictures of the aforementioned poorly soldered guard post. On the first one you can see the small bit of solder under the foot. Please understand that my most fervent hope is that I got a lemon and that all the rest of this lot of horns are fine. If not for these problems, and in the interest of brevity I only mentioned a small portion of the problems I found, this would be a great saxophone. I really believe that these people can make a great sax. This just isn't it. Best, Not Shilling for Nobody, Resent the Assertion, Rob.
Maybe I am naive and I know I am certainly unaccustomed to shillery.but.this review came damn close to being a legitimate technical document. Rob: Your approach was spot on, but when you add phrases like, 'I doubt it' or 'I don't expect stuff like that' or 'what a pain' it weakens the technical elements and opens the door to suggest to others that you have an agenda. If the goal is to present a truly neutral and scientific analysis, one must never include preference commentary or vague adjectives.
Overall, your review (again assuming your intentions are pure) was very informative and enlightening. Thank you for taking the time to write this. I will not discuss here how it came to bear that logo as I do not have all the facts.
Rather I will stick to what I do know and let the rest emerge during discussions. I can possibly help with this, it would appear that it was a joint research effort between Mike Crouch and Phil Barone, hence Phil Barone MAC20 (MAC are Mike Crouch's initials). Mike explained the reasons why he and Phil decided to get it made in China in a post on here.
I can also agree with milandro, that there are some excellent saxophones now coming from China, some of them costing more at source than some Taiwan saxophones. I have played a RTH underslung Chinese alto that was remarkably good, great sound and build - a bit more expensive than many other Chinese saxophones but worth it. I wish we could stop all this judgment of a saxophone by the place it was made or assembled. Maybe I am naive and I know I am certainly unaccustomed to shillery.but.this review came damn close to being a legitimate technical document. Rob: Your approach was spot on, but when you add phrases like, 'I doubt it' or 'I don't expect stuff like that' or 'what a pain' it weakens the technical elements and opens the door to suggest to others that you have an agenda. If the goal is to present a truly neutral and scientific analysis, one must never include preference commentary or vague adjectives. Overall, your review (again assuming your intentions are pure) was very informative and enlightening.
Thank you for taking the time to write this. Yofis, Thank you for your thoughtful commentary. Actually you are spot on.
I do desperately need to omit the little personal opinion phrases, only added in some mistaken sense of sarcastic humor. But, 'taint funny' and I get it. I think I will go back and edit those little shots out before any more read the piece. It was meant to be educational. I will not discuss here how it came to bear that logo as I do not have all the facts. Rather I will stick to what I do know and let the rest emerge during discussions.
I can possibly help with this, it would appear that it was a joint research effort between Mike Crouch and Phil Barone, hence Phil Barone MAC20 (MAC are Mike Crouch's initials). Mike explained the reasons why he and Phil decided to get it made in China in a post on here.
I can also agree with milandro, that there are some excellent saxophones now coming from China, some of them costing more at source than some Taiwan saxophones. I have played a RTH underslung Chinese alto that was remarkably good, great sound and build - a bit more expensive than many other Chinese saxophones but worth it. I wish we could stop all this judgment of a saxophone by the place it was made or assembled.
Hi Pete, Actually your first premise is in error. Phil told me that the Mac 20 series was completely done, the maker selected and the horns ordered without his knowledge or approval. They even went so far as to take Phil's logo and stencil the factory mouthpieces with it. Given the reputation of his mouthpieces one might see how this would make him less than happy. On your second point I agree whole heartedly. This is not a condemnation of Chinese horns per se. The little cultural comment at the end of the piece was just meant to explain how the current situation vis a vis Taiwanese instruments has arisen.
Almost like discrimination on racial bounds, we need to judge instrument by instrument, sax by sax and let the chips fall where they may. Actually, isn't a review supposed to be an opinion? After all, sound and response are subjective issues. Build quality, maybe, is the exception, but why the need to edit out opinion in a review? It's all an opinion,isn't it? I think the comments about 'shill' and implied 'bias' come more from historical record, rather than the opinion expressed here on it's own. Let your opinion speak for itself and each reader can judge the validity and the intent by the big picture.
Others may point out the historical validity as a point of reference. I can possibly help with this, it would appear that it was a joint research effort between Mike Crouch and Phil Barone, hence Phil Barone MAC20 (MAC are Mike Crouch's initials).
Mike explained the reasons why he and Phil decided to get it made in China in a post on here. Actually your first premise is in error.
Phil told me that the Mac 20 series was completely done, the maker selected and the horns ordered without his knowledge or approval. Er, did you just receive the facts since your first post?. I'd like to give the perspective of this review from a casual lurker, whose been trying to stay up to date on all of this: Note - these are my perceptions based on my regular forum readings, they are not fact. I hope this will merely serve as good feedback or input 1. The MAC tenors are no longer endorsed/made by Barone.
There has been some change in his business model and relationships recently. So when I see a review of a MAC tenor, I am assuming it is not a Barone horn. Rob's review did not seem to be biased or shill (issues?
Tenor Machado
Please see Note above). It was informative. Yes, non informative statements or joking should have been left out. Additionally, the 'Taiwan vs. China' stuff could have been left out also. Most of us as readers are informed enough to read about the issues and dynamics of both countries and their respective exports.
Are we good on that? Pm sent I'd just like to remind people, however, that what is being bruited about here is not Rob Dorsey's suitability for work at the UN, but rather the integrity of one of SOTW's best (albeit most controversial) members/vendors. I would just like to see people be a little more careful about what they say about that, given the stakes. FWIW, here is what Barone says on his website about Chinese horns. As I mentioned earlier products that are being made by companies new in a specific business are not always good and take time to evolve into a high quality product due to the time it takes to refine the item and for many years this is why I didn't sell these saxophones. Presently I've been watching other people selling saxophones and most of them are from China but the prices are like that of people selling Taiwanese horns.
Tenor Share Reiboot For Mac
BEWARE, most of the saxophones are from China, not Taiwan Needless to say, perhaps, this hardly sounds like somebody looking to market Chinese-made saxes with his own name on them.